Mary raises a very difficult question. What if a man enters the priesthood for evil motives, whether to gain money or have access to boys. Is his ordination valid? Is it possible for the recipient of ordination to have such inadequate or wrong motives that his ordination is invalid?
In diocesan files I came across a brief discussion by Dallas church officials as to whether they should seek to have the abuser Rudy Kos’s ordination annulled. They did not explain the grounds.
I can only guess they thought his motivation for ordination was not simple inadequate but evil, and that rendered his ordination invalid. I also guess they decided not to pursue the annulment because it would create a crisis of conscience among Catholics who had received the Eucharist or the sacrament of penance from him. Perhaps the lien of reasoning was the bishop intended to ordain a man who had presented himself as a devout Christian; but Kod was not, he was a pederast and perhaps not even a believer.
There are also sheer imposters who pretend to be priests, but I don’t think God punisher those who think they are receiving the sacraments from such imposters.
For example, the Council of Trent, I believe, taught that a spiritual communion is fully as efficacious as a sacramental communion. Protestants who communicate at their services may not receive Jesus in the elements, but their communion with Him can be as fully sanctifying as a Catholic’s. Those who receive the sacraments from imposters, I suggest, receive grace of the sacrament but not through the sacrament, which does not exist in that case.
God is not out to trick us; he desires that we be saved.
But bishops who knowingly or carelessly ordain such evil men will have much to answer for at the Judgment – although the way some bishops act, I doubt whether they believe in the Judgment or even God. It would not be the first time the Church had deistic or agnostic bishops.
I agree totally Leon !
I know I have spoken for many of the silent and suffering Faithful in my recent diatribes of postings.To all who read and post here and may not find this particular dialogue of interest, I apologize. To Leon a heartfelt thank you for allowing me to express my concerns for both older Catholics who genuinely feel they have “Nowhere to go for Mass” and have concerns about availability for what was once called “Extreme Unction” and who pray and worry about the Faith of their children and grandchildren .
Oddly, someone just emailed me this site below..I know I am not expressing the unique conclusion that the institutional church “Betrayed” or “Left Us’ .
However, I do not see where the web site owner offers any tangible suggestions as to how we rid ourselves of current Heirarchy who are deistic, agnostic , narcissistic and or have been proven to be just plain criminally negligent.
BTW Leon I know first hand that it took years and years for a little nun with a PhD who lives alone and in poverty to make reporters aware of the imposter “priest” then “bishop” Ryan St Anne aka Ryan Patrick Scott .
http://k2globalcommunicationsllc.wordpress.com/2012/04/24/we-did-not-leave-the-church-the-church-left-us-what-if-the-catholic-church-returned-home/
Carry this forward to the investigation into the Legionaries of Christ. Is the order valid? Or does the evil intention of the founder invalidate the order? In the blog-world, there is a rising wind of voices that claim Maciel was in league with the Masons and even visited the occult Chateau de Amerois in Belgium. Is the Legion a legitimate order that made a poor beginning or is by design and intention a tool of the Masons, with designs for taking over the Curia and the Papacy?
Aside from the question of Proper Intention for the sacrament of Holy Orders ,my eyes were opened wider this morning when I googled ‘Imposter priests” One AP article covered the story of 100 hundred total imposter priests in the San Diego area Diocese to 275 “legitimate Catholic priests.”
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1828&dat=19810815&id=MIM0AAAAIBAJ&sjid=TKcEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4036,4803843
Having reported our own pastor who was one such imposter to our own Bishop twenty years ago, I was chastised from the pulpit when the Bishop chose to come to our little mission parish and rale against anyone who would ,”Dare to question the faith of a priest.”
Since the alleged preist who had told us in a homily that Christ was NOT present in the Box
( while pointing to the Tabernacle) and had no clue how to give Absolution or even hear a Confession, I wrote to the Bishop with the aide of a dear friend who is an Archamandrite priest in the Melkite Catholic Rite from which this imposter was “on loan” to us from.
A year later I was informed by the accountant of the main parish that the priest’s contract was not renewed and was told that there was a question about his Ordination and that parishioners from the mother church had also complained about this priest’s cross dressing habit when attending Church functions like the annual Calenndar Party
fundraiser.The accountant also told me that he had wiped out all the funds from the various societies in the parish and had taken all the furniture the previous priest had purchased for the rectory.
I asked why she they had not taken legal action and the answer was,” Because he is a priest!”
Shortly there after the bishop closed and sold the Mission Parish and just last year we attended Divine Liturgy at the Main Church. Five people were at Sunday Mass as compared to the filled pews over twenty years ago.
I still am convinced that the world has lost a great source of Sanctifying Grace and I personally blame these Bishops who are too worried about worldly politics , money and image and not concerned about real Sanctification and Spiritual growth amongst their flocks.
So much for the New Evangelization! They need to re Evangelize themselves!
Mary, remember that St. John Chrysostom said, “the floor of Hell is paved with the skulls of bishops.”
Joseph , trust me Crysostom is one of my favorites and I never forget that quote.
When the Bishop came to our church basically to put me in my place ,we could not exit without kissing his ring. After my husband I humbly did so in tears out of respect for his Office. then my youngest daughter did and the Bishop looked back at my husband and asked, ” Does SHE take after her mother?” My dear convert husband reolied, “I CERTAINLY hope so!”
In the grand scheme of Faith and eternity, I realized that this Bishop was nothing but a title with a jeweled crown , I am responsible to God for my soul and those in my family first. He took on responsibility for the flock and dropped the ball, not me.I continue the struggle in fear and trembling but he has gone to his reward.
An update…he was a Maronite and not a Melkite that we complained about.I just did some research to see what happened to that priest from decades ago.and it appears same priest went to Texas and was made a Monsignore after he left us.
http://www.stmaron.org/Maronite_Voice_%20for_December_2004.pdf
“Several months ago, Monsignor James Khoury, who was the pastor of Saint Anthony Maronite Church in Lawrence, Massachusetts, was accused of sexual abuse of a minor when he was pastor of Saint George Church in San Antonio, Tex., twenty years ago. At that time an investigation into this alleged incident was conducted and Monsignor Khoury was placed on an official leave from the
parish pending its outcome.Since then, the Eparchial Review Board, which deals with these matters, has met and deliberated. After much
prayer and discernment, Bishop Gregory Mansour, this past September, has definitively decided against granting Monsignor Khoury an assignment or faculties in the Eparchy.”
Further update. I am assurred by a priest friend that this is a differnt Fr Khoury who was indeed a Melkite on loan to the Carpatho Ruthenina Byzantine Diocese and our Church.
He states he is definitely out of the priest business and is being kept tabs on.
I am told by an Orthodox priest that a RC pederast priest has been allowed into the Orthodax……and that all Bishops must do a better job of background checks……..Neverthelss,as exemplified by the San Diego Diocese coverage ,it appears that “imposter” priests can and do show up everywhere taking full advantage of the confusion and previous lack of oversight in the church.
Joseph,
A beloved yia-yia had a slightly different version:
‘The road to hell is paved with the bones of priests (and monks), and the skulls of bishops are the lamp posts that light the path’.
But the intent is the same.
Apparently the faithful console themselves that the sins of the clergy and nuns does not justify their own leaving the faith/church, at least in the eastern Churches.
Jay, as far as Eastern Rite Catholics leaving their Churches…About a year ago we went to Sunday Divine Liturgy at the main parish church of which our closed and sold off Eastern Catholic Mission Church was once a part of.
Aside from ourselves, there were five people in a church in which only twenty five years ago one could not find an empty pew seat on Sunday.
Two of the five were fellow Mission parishioners and we were greeted warmly. The rest apparently consoled themselves by closing their pocketbooks and leaving after they ralized they were robbed.
The local Orthodox Church was filled with Eastern Rite Catholics and Roman Catholics on Easter Sunday . Interesting………
Mary, the bishops’s behavior toward your family was absolutely inexcusable! This is the fundamental problem I have not only with Catholic but with Orthodox ecclesiology: Bishops who view themselves as “apostolic successors” and priests as “alter Christi” misinterpret (deliberately, I believe) those designations to aggrandize power, privledge and a sense of entitlement when they were designed to encourage anything but. Read John 13. Jesus demonstrated that those who held authority in His name are to imitate Him in sacrificial service, not the secular leaders who “lord it over” their trust.
The problem is that the Orthodox and Catholic churches have become so infatuated with power, prestige and money that they have sacrificed their birthright to those things.
Mary, our family is a mix of Dutch, Irish and Greek(!). Our Orthodox relatives have a very good priest He’s a Dutchman of all things, a convert from the Reform faith. In your experience, have you found the clergy of the E. O. Church “better” (perhaps more approachable, more understanding, less arogant, etc.) than their R.C. counterparts? Why do you think so many Catholics are becoming Orthodox? What do they find in the Orthodox Church that they were missing in the Catholic?
Fr, What I watched and experienced happen was this.
The Churches are small in the Eastern Byzantine Rite ( and Orthodox) so one gets to know the priests and the Bishops very well.
Most of these immigarnats came to America and founded these Churches with their married priests from the old country ( because it was allowed by Rome.)
They split in two when their second generation Eastern Rite catholic priests were forbidden to marry here. The ones who disagreed with this change to their traditions formed Orthodox Churches and others remained in the Catholic Byzantine Churches.Both flourished for awhile.
But then the Byzantine Catholics sent their children to RC schools and married Roman Catholics and as you well know the Byzantine Eastern Liturgy is much lengthier then the Novus Ordo, so many abandoned their traditions and their churches.
As time went on many Roman Catholics migrated into the Eastern Rite Churches here because they were disedified by the rampant changes in the Masses along with the pederast settlements.. We were part of this migration in the eighties. Our RC pastor would come out with his cordless microphone and warm up the pew people with comments on the latest sports scores. The guitars would strum and the congregation would clap when the various singers were introduced. It was religious entertainment instead of Divine Worship.( He was later convicted of steling 5 thousnad from the collection and giving it to his Assistant Pastor to flee the country from pederast charges.The latter is still on the FBI wanted list.)
Catholic Byzantine Mission churches sprung up all over and again in the eighties , and I repeat we all got to know our priests and our bishops very well.
The seminaries were cranking out so many of the same as the Roman Catholics were getting.As time passed we found homosexually oriented priests were being sent to us as pastors. Like the Latins , we began to have pederast scandals and subsequent hush settlements ,then open criminal cases. We KNEW then that the Bishops had done the same as they did in the RC Church.They just transferred them around.
Many Byzantine Churches were closed, people were leaving and those whose families split so long ago because their priests were forbidden to marry in this country went back to the Orthodox along with the Latins who have left theie Roman Catholic churches for the same reasons as listed .
They all feel and state they ,” Have no real Mass or church to go to”, and as you are aware, Canon Law states the Orthodox have valid priests and sacraments and Apostolic Succession also.
What we discovered that was missing from the RC Churches was not only the participation and beauty of the ancient Liturgy ( which is why Tridentine Masses are making a comeback in the RC) but also the awe and reverance of the transcendent, which is very palpable and longed for by most spiritual persons.
Here, I might add, we have noted the priests who are doing the Tridentine are the very same ones who love the pomp , lace and adulation for another reason.
A Roman Catholic friend who worked for decades in these rectories is now writing a book on this.She is disgusted that the “image of holiness”is being exploited by these ‘men’with the Latin Trdentine Liturgy in order to fill the pews and collection baskets.
For us the Eastern church , now Orthodox, was always the best solution because our main interest concerning the Creator is to know ,love and serve Him in this world so as to be with Him in the next.
For the first time we were understanding so much MORE from the Gospels! You are correct Father when you posit that the Greek Kloine translation is different.
We always used the same Scriptures in the Byzantine Catholic Rite we were in ,as they do in the Orthodox.
Aside from this I recommend to everyone Latin or Eastern to purchase this Bible with commentary from the Early Church Fathers like Sts Crysostom , Iraenius ,Athanasius etc. I sent it as a gift to an RC friend and she checked with a Catholic Byzantine priest to see if she was ‘allowed” to use it and he
replied,” You will love it!”
The commentaries from these Saints are eye opening.
For example, the ancient Christian Church Father;s commentary made concerning Chirst’s warning as to why in the End Times ,”….it will be worse than Sodom and Gommorah,” was jolting!
http://www.overstock.com/Books-Movies-Music-Games/Holy-Bible-Hardcover/2618343/product.html?cid=202290&kid=9553000357392&track=pspla&adtype=pla&kw={keyword}
Joseph,
Our last Orthodox Bishop just passed of cancer. He was very approachable and viewed himself as a servant.The people all loved him. I was told by the parishioners who were close to him that he literally fell face down on the floor when he was told he was to be made a Bishop and requested the parishioners step on him One former Roman Catholic who met him several times said she and her husband , “…never met such an approachable humble cleric.”
Please do not think I am in anyway pushing Orthodoxy ,I am just relating what I have experienced , seen and have been told.
I cannot paint all with the same brush because I simply do not know.
But I would have to use a pretty wide roller when it comes to what I do know about Catholic priests and Bishops.My first hand experience is extensive to say the least.
So should we worry or hold Bishop’s feet to the fire ?
Or is this not a good enough reason to search for valid priests who are real Believers ?
Because they are still teaching the kids that you go to hell without Sanctifying Grace and you lose it with mortal sin that is not confessed and granted Absolution.
Of course God is all knowing and merciful and if you are granted an invalid illicit Penance by an invalid priest God knows your heart. But is it a good enough reason to want to be sure about your priest? I think so………..
http://www.catholicbook.com/AgredaCD/MyCatholicFaith/mcfc039.htm
Mary, I have a copy of the Orthodox Study Bible and use it for homilies. Beautiful! My own personal spirituality centers around the use of the Jesus Prayer. My Greek relatives think of me as “almost Orthodox”(!) Thanks for sharing your history and viewpoint.
Joseph, I think the experience of the Orthodox is somewhat different in that, though once the official state religion of Byzantium and the East Slavs (Czarist Russia especially), it became the, at best tolerated, and at worst persecuted, religion of subject peoples. First under the Ottomans (and other Moslem regimes) and then the Communists. The Soviets certainly corrupted some of the clergy, and the official status the Orthodox Church has enjoyed in Greece for the last century has led to some problems. But by and large, it has for a long time, in most places, been a faith in captivity. I have been very much edified by my relatives priests.
Finally, I have to wonder if significantly fewer homosexuals are drawn to the Orthodox priesthood. Rome can lay down restrictions on the admission of candidates, but I have come accross men who did not admit to themselves they were homosexual until their thirties or later. Such men would present themselves in all honesty as heterosexual.
Mary, I don’t think you’re “pushing” Orthodoxy. You’re not offending me in the slightest. You’re just relating your experiences. My own experiences w/Orthodoxy have been, for all intents and purposes, non-existent. I just feel so pervastively disgusted w/the centralized nature of liturgical churches (the Anglicans are in civil war as we speak) that I just assumed the Orthodox had the same problems. Naturally, I could be wrong.
Fr , is the commentary in your Bible taken from explanatory notes of the Early Church Fathers on the passages? This is no ordinary Scriptural text that you will find elsewhere, I assure you.
“Rome can lay down restrictions on the admission of candidates, but I have come accross men who did not admit to themselves they were homosexual until their thirties or later. Such men would present themselves in all honesty as heterosexual.”
Oddly Fr I have discovered that Orthodoz priests
who have wives and daughters are aided by the feminine instincts regarding such matters.
God did give man a women as a helpmate and a wise and good wife can only serve to elevate her Spouse’s soul and enlighten his intellect as the Scriptures tell us.
Nota Bene (He did not give man a same sex partner in Creation ) Men would be smart to admith that women do have other complimentary attributes aside from sexuality.
From the sublime of Scripture , to the topic at hand
RE:Imposter Priests
How about Imposter Exorcist priests?
Someone recently asked noting this priest on Facebook
“Why is this man allowed to continue as a priest, and to be on the internet as a priest after what he has done? ”
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Fr-Thomas-Euteneuer/109169719165468 –
Facebook © 2012 · English (US)
I have also noted that the Pope acted quickly in assigning an Opus Dei Cardinal to ferret out VatiLeaks clerics!
Would that Ratzinger/Benedict would have acted as quickly to root out the sodomite pederasts abusers and enablers! The latter he has done nothing of note about except to grant some Vatican immunity.
Jose Barba and fellow former youth seminarians have waited lifetimes .Recently, Vatican clerics have passsed him 212 copies of documents to prove how long the Vatican knew about Maciel.
‘Pope calls in Opus Dei troubleshooter to uncover source of Vatican leaks’
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/26/pope-opus-dei-vatican-leaks
I am wondering who in the Vatican is the least bit interested in the Faith and not just image money and power? One poor ex LC sees the above actions by the Vatican as disappointing…..
“Sadly I had to face my great disappointment in Cardinal De Paolis, especially since would not create a commission to discover the truth.”
For OD members and/or sympathizers that follow this blog:
1. Please ask you superiors/OD connections that Card Herranz does not to punish the brave people that leaked documents to Jose Barba.
2. Please ask your superiors/OD connections that Card Herranz brings to justice those that aided Fr Maciel in his crimes.
3. Please ask Card Herranz to come clean on his own role during the height of the sex abuse scandal and Fr Maciel’s cover up.
4. Please ask Card Herranz, who was in charge of Canon Law interpretation, how come RC was allowed to exist with support of Curia Cardinals, if it has not Canon Law foundation.
5. Please ask Card Herranz where in church doctrine or history or Canon law it says that teachings of a un-apologetic criminal are allowed to be used as material for religious educations, without citation.
Thank you”
http://www.life-after-rc.com/2012/04/the-truth-is-painful-but-freeing.html#comments
After Christ cast the demons into the herd of swine they jumped off a cliff into the water and the townsmen were furious that Jesus ruined their profit. This particular town was in the business of raising pork for consumption.Pork was forbidden to the Jews and as such they were sinning.
I just reread what I posted above ( the pleas of a former LC to Opus Dei adherants)
The thought occurred to me I would like to say to him,”When pigs fly.”
Leon you were so right to wonder where the outrage is/was amongst the Heirarchy concerning the sodomite pederast abuse.
These men are like the swineherders who cannot see the rightousness of God’s Law.
Mary,
Your friend is writing a book about the ‘men’ in the Latin Mass priestly societies? Has she heard of Fr. Timothy Svea? The ICK seems to be quite lavender in general. I’ve heard a few stories about those guys, none of them very pleasant. They act the same way as the Novus Ordo priests but are obsessed with lace and dress-up. Sick.
Alton,
No,, she never mentioned that name. Her exposure was to three Diocese of priests , although she worked in only one, all three Diocese interchanged and seemed to operate as one with the main one being that of a major US city under a certain Cardinal.
After our chance encounter we dined together several times. I basically wanted to know if my own strong impressions years ago were correct, having known more than several of these priests very well myself.She gave me first hand accounts which proved to me even if they do not walk like a duck they quack alot behind the scenes with the rest of the flock.The conversations which elicited the biggest laughs amongst them had to do with private confessions which when I heard ,made my blood boil.
The host of these lavendar parties is praised all over the internet and on youtube as a pious devout Traditional Latin priest. I do not think any of these men belong to any Latin Mass societies , they are all Diocesan and many NO are part of this particular clique.
They do like to join the Knightly organizations which I am told costs them a pretty penney.Many pose as devoted to Our Lady and support the latest visionaries and once popularized themselves as having been part of the Marian Movement of Priests..The local KoC are at all of their ceremonial Masses and public functions like outdoor processions on feastdays
.
I do however, know much about the Latin Mass societies and would also forwarn you that they do not screen out these types either.Just look at what happened at St Gregory’s Acadeny school in PA.
Speaking of which ( so knight in shining armor) ,my friend was visited and basically told to keep quiet about what she knew and saw in the rectories very soon after she left her job.
Let me state here if anything untoward happens to this lady I will be the first go to the press and to the proper legal authorities and I will not give up.
Not only have the youth been scandalized but these priests have used and abused devout little old ladies too.They have capitalized on deceiving poorly catechized men also who are proud to be viewed publicly as defenders of the Faith.
I am saddened that men do not realize that they are foremost protectors of children, women and the weak according to God’s own Natural Law.
Furthermore, please check out the linked Facebook page above. Note the priest whose name it is in . Also note the statement that this priest does not endorse or own the Facebook page. Appears to be a way to test the remnants of his own now publicly disgraced popularity since on the ‘wall” postings are said to be what HE wants to ‘share”.Note the link to this article. The owner of the site ( Makow) who posted the original article placed a “proviso” from one “victim”after the article was published that the poster on Facebook apparently did not notice.
http://www.henrymakow.com/rev_thommas_j_euteneuer.html
These men are all wolves not “Foxes’ as Maciel was often referred to . There are countless others who desperate Catholics cling to as “holy”.
Seeking high profile publicity and profit is common. Just look at EWTN .
Grooming followers who feel they lost so much of their Catholic identity through the public court scandals , the changes in the Mass , loss of devotion to Our Lady etc is a common way to bring in big donations and hide behind a screen . Wolves know how to hunt and bring down their prey.
Where are the REAL men? Where is the OUTRAGE against these Imposters?
I didn’t see the name of any priest and was connected directly to Makow’s site (which I have visited many times).
I want to add that the phrase my friend told me she most often heard from the lips of these priestly imposters to justify their own preference for sodomite relations was and is , “Love is love”.
Surely they are of the same mind as those who would like to make Christ and His Apostles into their own fallen unatural image?
Mary,
Everything you’ve said confirms what I’ve heard. One priest who was part of a Latin Mass Society said it was full of homosexuals who loved fancy chasubles and eating out at nice restaurants. Yes, I’ve read about the Society of St. John in PA and Fr. Carlos Urrutigoity. So many phony priests…probably the majority to be honest. I know some excellent priests but to some extent they live in a world of denial. The priest formerly of the Latin Mass Society told me it took him years to accept how corrupt the Church has become. The priesthood never has been composed of nothing but saints but what we’ve been dealing with for decades now is a total disgrace. I’m convinced Rome is at the source of the homosexuality in the priesthood. There’s no other way to explain how that vice spread to the Church pretty much everywhere in the world. My belief is that American dioceses sent priests over to Rome who became corrupted and brought their perversions back to the US. Same thing probably happened elsewhere.
Fr M,
A quote from the article which Makow post scripted after the article was written and was already up defending same priest .Apparently Makow did a little more research…..
“Saving Father Euteneuer”
“It appears that this article misplaced its confidence when it supported Fr. Euteneuer. Victim speaks through a friend.”
http://www.henrymakow.com/rev_thommas_j_euteneuer.html
Here is the link that Henry Makow linked to in that post scripted admission after he wrote the original article.
http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?idCategory=34&idsub=127&id=51493&t=%22No%20greater%20love%22%3A%20a%20friend%27s%20statement%20for%20a%20victim%20of%20Fr%20Euteneuer
You may also find these articles of interest concerning the same once popular “Exorcist”
.I suggest you read them from the bottom up as the writer became more enlightened on the subject.
http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/otoole/110221
http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/otoole/110203
http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/otoole/110129
http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/otoole/110118
http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/otoole/110114
Alton, One good priest ,the son of a friend ,returned home from Rome and told his mother and her friends that he decided never to become a Diocesan because of the politics. But that while in Rome doing his studies he witnessed worse. He said many of the seminarians began drinking around lunch to get through the day.He received his PhD there and plans to look for a Professorship here and will say Mass for his own mother.
How sad.
Mrs Engel was chastised in writing by her one time friend Alice Von Hidebrand for reporting in her book ‘The Rite of Sodomy” about Pope Paul 6th and for revealing the opinion the Italian journalists have of the present Pope.
To date another book has been published in explicit detail by one Vatican employee under Paul 6th and Richard Sipe has more recently posted this article of interest.
http://www.richardsipe.com/Comments/2012-04-04-pope-benedict-gay.htm
So perhaps Alton your conclusions are correct.I cannot say personally except the articles about his Prada shoes ,Gucci sunglasses and matching ski outfit with that of his personal Secretary ,do not make imho for Spiritual admiration.
As I said in another post, the intention of the recipient of the sacrament has an effect on grace received, but not on validity, unless it is out and out fraud….and I don’t know if the Church has decided on the fraud aspect. As for bad intention, many who became priests in the Middle Ages and Renaissance did so for reasons of money, power, position, or just a job, esp. for an extra son of nobility. As for total fraud, that would include the Communists and perhaps Masons who became priests purposefully to harm the Church. I would think that given the intention to have and do what the Church intends would, regardless of the moral state or belief of the ordinand, might be sufficient. However, in matrimony, deception in a significant manner is grounds for annulment. If deceiving a spouse invalidates a marriage, why not deceiving the Church, the spouse of Christ? This is most puzzling…
I’ve often heard from Catholic people who travel around Canada that my diocese is one of, if not the best in the country. Maybe that’s why what Alton Route and others have written seems overly grim or pessimistic to me. The priests I know are largely dedicated, doctrinally sound and (apparently) heterosexual. I know of some who seem off in one way or other, but hardly a majority. Yet I can’t argue with your experience.
Alton Route, traditionalists tend to regard “gay priests” as a Novus Ordo phenomenon. Do you have reason to think there are a lot of homosexuals in the traditionalist orders in general (as opposed to this or that parish)? What about SSPX?
Yes…I know there are some dioceses that aren’t so bad off. They seem to be in the minority to me, but they do exist. One priest I know said that the diocese had to have dirt on you for you to work in the chancery…so that you would have to “play ball.”
Traditionalists are wrong that gay priests are solely the product of Vatican II. The gay priest problem was a growing phenomenon decades before Vatican II, but the effects of the Council greatly exacerbated an already-serious problem. Cardinal Spellman was a notorious homosexual and an alleged abuser, as was Cardinal O’Connell of Boston. There were rumors about Cardinal Mundelein, too. Edward Kantowicz in his book Corporation Sole writes that Mundelein liked to surround himself with handsome young priests. One of Mundelein’s golden boys was auxiliary Bernard Sheil, who seemed very suspicious to me. Just recently it was revealed that Archbishop McQuaid of Dublin was accused of abusing a young boy, although I had read that he was a homosexual in years past. There has to be a powerful homosexual cabal in the Vatican. The homosexual priest problem in the US, at least to me, seemed to have arisen at the early stages of the 20th century and rapidly increased its power over the decades.
I recently read a biography of a popular college chaplain. The author of a biography of that chaplain writes that Cardinal Spellman encouraged the would-be chaplain to become a priest when they met at a rectory in the Boston Archdiocese in the 1930s. Sure enough, I have heard stories that the chaplain was involved with male students as far back as the 1940s. That’s how the gay priest system works and probably still does. One claws his way to the top, perhaps as bishop or some other powerful office, and opens the door to men of his particular persuasion.
FR , Mrs Engel did an excellent job of historical reference follow thru in her book,ROS. Tracing the background of certain past members of the Heirarchy the reader can plainly see how the current court cases and numbers confirm their past policies.Sadly, I happen to love in one of those regions.
“Jesus Christ ,Son of the Living God, have mercy on me the first amongst sinners”
Fr Urrutigoity was a member of SSPX .
Scroll down and read from this excellent blog
“Randy Engel Exposes Pederast Urrutigoity’s Protection by Opus Dei Bishop”
http://whereisfrhaley.blogspot.com/2010_04_01_archive.html
Fr , believe it or not we are not pessimists , nor optimists but realists. It has been a long hard real life trying to live my Catholic Faith and even harder trying to pass it down to our children and grandchildren.We are Blessed when we find and try hard to keep priests who are True Believers.
Mary Ann ,
Iif you think you are puzzled do not feel alone. I am wondering if there is a New Dicastery that just reads blogs to discover what will bring people back to the fold or just to donate?
So after fighting litigations to extend the Statute of Limitations and quietly transferring pederasts from parish to parish we now have a sudden shift back to Traditional teachings and thought ? After decades of denials by Bishops
( and dissenting labels ) to those who sought it? A renewed upholding of Catholic teachings apparently throwing Catholics off balance after years of enduring liberal Bishops, priests and kunbayya catechetcs.
Confusion everywhere with Bishop against Bishop ,Cardinal against Cardinal!
Last Christmas a cousin who, mocked me for saying the rosary ,wrote to complain about his parish offering a Latin Mass in a Christmas card!
I do not know whether to be happy or sad!?!
All of a sudden these stories are popping up all over Catholic News sites .An Austrian priest remembered our teaching on the state of Grace for sacramental reception while another Bishop here decides to deny the Sacraments to the confused pew people for gossip and dissent?
I was also surprised to read that the body of the of the most nototious mafia boss in Italy was finally going to be removed from the sacred burial vault under St Appolinaire Opus Dei owned basilica in Rome! Cardinal Poletti the Postulator for Escriva’s Cause has been revealed to have accepted money for the mob boss’s reburial in the basilica.Suddenly he is being exhumed yet again and given the boot?This after years of complaints from Italian Catholics!
http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/mob-boss-scandal-chance-learn-rome-warts-and-all
“Especially on top of other financial scandals, the revelation about the 1990 payoff has struck many observers as a further confirmation of the distorting effect money can sometimes have on good ecclesial judgment”
No Communion if you are NOT in the State of Grace….wow!
http://ncronline.org/news/global/austrian-parish-listens-priest-none-receive-host
No Sacraments for dissenters..Read all the comments too in order to comprehend a sampling of the confusion.
http://ncronline.org/news/faith-parish/wisconsin-bishop-threatens-denial-sacraments-rumors-and-gossip
Mary, I have a copy of ROS but have only read parts. I found the whole thing very depressing. However, it sounds like I should give the book a good read from cover to cover. I suspect more and more that the Fatima message refered to heterodoxy and immorality among the clergy, even “to the highest levels”. Thanks for all the good links!
I wish they would not refer to a Cardinal as the “Vatican.”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vatican-accepted-one-billion-lire-to-bury-crime-boss-in-basilica-next-to-former-popes-7689047.html
This is the Church for which Cardinal Poletti ,Escriva’s friend and Promugator for his Cause took money to refurbish. Cardinal Poletti obtained the property forfOpus Dei.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbcworldservice/3650401022/in/set-72157620102638041
Same Cardinal was implicated before of “financial irregularities.”
http://archive.catholicherald.co.uk/article/17th-september-1993/1/vatican-bribe-charges
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1144&dat=19830213&id=LggeAAAAIBAJ&sjid=_l8EAAAAIBAJ&pg=7139,4923026
http://thecuriouscatholic.blogspot.com/
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/story/2012-03-17/vatican-leaks-probe/53590968/1
Fr I do not wish for anyone to be depressed and neither does Our Lord Jesus. Remember He said He would not leave us orphans.
By in large though, the laity and even the priests have been orphaned by the Bishops .Correct me please if I am wrong but I always understood the Bishop’s role was to oversee what is and is not beiong taught to Catholics within his Diocese.Granting Imprimaturs which is symbolic of that role. Here is just one glaring example. I think it is shameful that he found the need to pay for a company to have to do a survey and even more embarrassing that he released the results as “intriguing”.
“N.J. bishop calls faith study results ‘intriguing”
“CAMDEN, N.J. – Nearly 60% of practicing Catholics in South Jersey believe that Jesus sinned while he was on Earth, according to a study released by the Diocese of Camden.”
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/story/2012-05-04/catholic-survey-jersey/54748362/1
Escriva’s canonization process was different. Most of the committee was Opus, I think, and they got rid of the “devil’s advocate” just prior. Really convenient, in my opinion. As for me, I am with St. Thomas: the Church cannot infallibly know the state of soul of someone, but she can state that someone made it to heaven. So did a lot of my relatives, I’m sure. Anyway, Escriva’s history is weird and his writings are hackneyed and his ideas were not novel. But sour grapes: he’s in heaven and I am not yet. St. Escriva, pray for me.
Mary, it’s all about the clerical club and the money (and, often, about the sex). They will be heretical or orthodox, whatever it takes, whatever advances the career or pleases the people with money. Thank God sin and heresy don’t invalidate the Sacraments (unless the clerics don’t intend what the Church intends).
Back in the 60’s and 70’s, the “reformers” knew they had the Revolution on their side, and the government, and the demographics, so they didn’t need to be nice to the people in the pews when they did wholesale changes and told people to get lost if they didn’t like it. Now, the older people have the money, and could leave it in wills (these will are funding much weirdness and misbehavior now, as little old ladies are fooled by smoothies in Roman collars).
Sorry, I can’t be made to believe Escriva is in heaven just because the Church says so – that is not an infallible teaching. After knowing that he imprisoned his secretary for months, that Franco’s cabinet was 100% Opus members. Also, having known so many numerarias and their cultish behaviors…the fruit of his work is definitely not good. It really worries me that Opus is taking a major role in this new evangelization role-out, too.
Mary Ann,
Actually the little old ladies here are pretty wise now here. As most have told me ,”We have no place to go to Mass .”It is the younger and middle aged crowd that has been and are being fooled.
The older ladies who have always gone to Mass (daily Mass also) know what they are dealing with depite the “Dominus vobiscums”and the flip to the more traditional demeanor and dress.
The “clique’ is huge up in this neck of the woods.
Dear Mary Ann,
Re: ” sour grapes” question concerning Escriva.
My experiences with clericalism has been such that I have learned to keep my Faith simple .I figure Jesus came and tried to make it pretty simple for most folks and when it gets all muddied( politics,power and wealth) the UNITY He desired amongst His followers splintered and apparently it continues.
“Now the Saints who are mentioned in Tradition and Scripture, such as Saint Peter the Apostle, are a separate case. Since their lives and holiness is attested to in infallible Divine Revelation, the Church can infallibly teach their holiness and can infallibly declare them to be Saints. But most Saints have lived long after the canon of Scripture was closed. For unless the life of a Saint is a part of Sacred Tradition (e.g. the mother of the Virgin Mary), or unless a Saint is mentioned in Sacred Scripture (e.g. the father of the Virgin Mary, called Heli), such a Saint’s canonization cannot be considered a part of the teachings of the Church, nor of the Magisterium, neither infallibly nor fallibly.”
“No, no one is obligated to believe, as an article of faith, that a particular person (someone not referred to in Tradition or Scripture) is a Saint. There is no obligation under the sacred assent due to infallible teachings of the Sacred Magisterium, nor under the ordinary assent due to the fallible teachings of the Ordinary Magisterium. Judgments of the Temporal Authority of the Church are, in some sense, binding on the faithful, but they are not in the realm of belief and faith, because the Temporal Authority issues rulings, not teachings.”
http://www.catholicplanet.com/TSM/infallibility-canonizations.htm
Mary and CM, that’s what I have always thought, with St. Thomas, but I read it here and there that JPII, I think, stated that canonization was infallible. I neither can nor feel like putting my hand on the source, so was just covering that particular base. If so, ok. The fact of being in heaven is one thing. The state of virtue of the soul is another. That the Church cannot know, says St. Thomas, because it is not subject to certain human knowledge, but only known by God.
Mary, you have knowledge of many interesting sites. I found what this gentleman had to say interesting, but am glad he emphasized that the majority of theologians hold that canonization is infalible (at least in the sense that God would not allow the Church to officially honor as a saint someone who is not in Heaven, even if their life here may have been problematic). What is the view of the Orthodox Church?
The canonization of St. Josemaria has been very controversial and one wonders whether raising someone so controversial to official sainthood was prudent. In my view, that’s why we should wait on canonizing JP II. I think we need a bit more prespective on his life and legacy.
I think this is an example of what they are calling “creeping” infallibility. There are so many saints who wrote texts on matters that are now held sacrosanct just because they were saints and should not be criticized. Tough to make changes when we overidealize them…
Fr can you tell me if any antipopes ( of which there were a few in Church History ) ever canonized during their reign?
Having been in medicine in both Hospice and LTC ,I noted most of my elderly clients with Parkinson’s had gone into dementia or were challenged by the effects of their medications for the disease.
I also have been researching Cardinal Poletti who was Escriva’s long time friend and Postulator for his Cause. It has been recently revealed by a leak from inside the Vatican that Cardinal Poletti,, who obtained St Apollinaire Basilica for the use of Opus Dei, accepted over a half a million in mafia money to refurbish the Basilica and then granted permission for the Magliani mafia boss to be buried there with Popes and Saints despite the ire of Italian Catholics.
The Vatican has fought the opening of the crypt for years but due to the dogged persistance of an amazing mafia Prosecutor and recent information he obtained in mafia busts , the crypt will now be opened and the mafia boss removed.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vatican-accepted-one-billion-lire-to-bury-crime-boss-in-basilica-next-to-former-popes-7689047.html
http://mafiatoday.com/general-breaking-news/mob-boss-scandal-a-chance-to-learn-rome-warts-and-all/
Today I did some research on St Andrew since in the past eight years three Andrews have come into our immediate family.
I think everyone will find this information of interest especially the mention of the tribe St Christopher ( a hotly contested saint amongst Catholics a few years back ) originated from.
http://ourorthodoxlife.blogspot.com/2010/11/apostle-saint-andrew.html
Fr the Orthodox do not accept all RC Canonizations and this is one of the stumbling blocks for reunification.Much goes back to acceptation of the first Seven Councils by the Orthodox .Papal infallibility was only defined in 1870 quite a time after the seventh council.The acknowledgement that the Bishop of Rome having the final say as ‘The first among many” goes back to the Early Church of course.
Another site, ‘NewAdvent’, suggests that canonization and quality of infallibility need be defined since Theologians have differing views.
Mary Ann subscibes to the view of St Thomas , while I on the otherhand, question the ongoing revelations of corruption attributed to the last fifty or so years and the infiltration of the mafia by way of P2 freemasonry into the Church structure.
The results of which have been amply acknowedged by at least two published surveys done by two Diocese which illustrate the gross lack of knowledge of the Faith by Catholics therein.
I am particularly wary of this New Evangelization Dicastery which appears to umbrella all the newer sects like the Legion and RC ,OD ,Miles Jesu, Neo Catechumens and so on. Rather than unifying the Church ,these sects have been proven to cause division and heartaches for laity and clergy alike.
My family and friends have personally witnessed and been victimized by a type of “Super Catholic”ethos attributed to the Legion and Opus Dei in particular.
I long for the days when one could be just a Catholic without all the political infighting, competition, multiple catechetical programs and materials and of course dissedification by way of clerical scandals.
This is why I prefer to keep my Faith simple with focus on Scripture and Tradition as set forth in the Creed.I think the instruction of St Vincent of Lerins in his Commotorium of what to believe when there is confusion in the Church applies today just as it did in the Third Century.
Apologies for the above reply which was very poorly worded .The reference to “New Advent” site should be better paraphrased that the quality of Infallibility in regard to Canonizations should be defined more clearly by the Church, much as what the Canon Lawyer said to me with regard to Proper Intention on the part of the recipient for the Sacrament of Holy Orders.One argument is based on the fact that it does not fulfill the requirements in canon 714.
In researching this topic there are so many positions pro and con that it boggles the mind.
These “legalisms”are exactly what I have sought to escape since they are not in my realm as an armchair Theologian nor do I find the arguments helpful to my own spiritual solace or salvation.
I can only deal with what is before me with regard to attending Holy Liturgy, a sound priest,personal prayer, sacrifice and loving others.
Realizing this came with my own age and caring for the dying which included dealing with clients who were Catholic and trying to get priests out to minister to them.
Heaven is filled with Saints and whether or not I choose to invoke or not invoke Escriva will not insure my own salvation of that I am sure.
Only Jesus can solve the myriad of confusion that plagues the Institutional Church.We all have much penance and prayer to accomplish and so little time.
I thought this too would be of interest
Last post here on canonizations and the Orthodox and Byzantine Catholic Saints
“Canonization by Consent”……….
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=596412
Fr. Michael, As one who attended Orthodox Churches for sixteen years with intensive study and the hope of membership, let me try to answer your question about the process of canonization.
In the early years of the Church, Saints were declared by popular acclamation. Example are Boris and Gleb, Alexander Nevsky, Vladimir, Constantine and Helen. More recently they are proclaimed by synods. Read the account of the canonization of St. Herman of Alaska on the Wikipedia (read all accounts critically, of course) for the more modern way of recognizing Saints. ITSM that Orthodox Saints are recognized both for sanctity of life and for contributions to the welfare of the Church.
This is a very brief assessment on my part. Perhaps someone with deeper knowledge could add to it.
Another apology for capitalizing this blog of late and for stating this was the last post here.
It occurred to me it may be Canon #749 and not #714 as posted above that was used to dispute the infallibility criteria of canonization on one Catholic blog. As I said, I hate legalities and I am sure the Just Judge goes by His own formula. I did not want to appear a liar since veracity is important to me, nor did I post the Catholic link to the argument at the risk of being presumed hackneyed
One last thought ( I promise now ).
Personal background with regard to Infallibility and Church legalities from first hand experiences.
After our Byzantine rite catholic mission church was sold we decided to explore the Tridentine Rite. At the time it was not offered nearby.
I became friends with Mother Teresa of Stll River, Mass. She was one of the original Feeneyites and cared for Fr Feeney up to his death and burial on the property. We had several lengthy discussions at St Anne’s House at the convent there and we stayed with the Benedictine monks next door. The nuns had a beautiful chapel in the convent where priests said the Tridentine Mass. Fr Feeney upheld the infallible Dogma of no Salvation Outside the Church ( Extra Ecclesia Nulus Salus) and for that was allegedly excommunicated by the local Ordinary. The reason behind this was political having to do with Joe Kennedy and his business friends whose children Fr was converting to Catholicism in Harvard Square. I was told the intimate deatils by Mother which did not all make it in Potter’s book on the subject. The nuns went to the Vatican years later after many letters and appeals and discovered that the ‘excommunication” was never approved by Rome and so they decided before Fr passed it would be of great comfort for him to officially be asured by the presiding Local Ordinary that he was not excommunicated. The current Bishop came to the convent and asked Fr to simply recite the Creed.Weak elderly and in a wheelchair he looked up and recited the Athanasius Creed verbatum. That was quite enough for the Bishop.
We also attended Masses with the Benedictines next door. They said the Novus Ordo in Latin in it’s original promulgation the English being on the opposite side of each page.We were amazed to read and discover that it was almost identical to the Divine Liturgy of St Crysostom we had been accustomed to for several dacades in the Byzantine Catholic Rite! But it was far removed from the Novus Ordo Masses we had in our local Catholic parishes.
During dinners with these lovely nuns we discussed considering sending our youngest daughter to a private Catholic College founded by a Regnum Christi businessman and his wife. Next door, after dinners with the priests and monks, we discussed another private Catholic College in a MidAtlantic state. Several of the good Sisters warned us to stay away from having anything to do with the Legion having had relatives that were in Regnum Christi and sensing something was ,”…just not right”. At the Abbey monks warned of the other college by relating experiences of recruitment into the modern Movements of relatives who had gone there.
We also spent a very short time in a nearby SSPX Chapel.Long enough however, to become very discouraged by the brand of Catholicism the priest’s and one Bishop we met preached there.
My husband, in particular questioned the merits of Adolf Hitler being preached from the pulpit and the Commando Youth Group which was eerily modeled on the Nazi Youth Corps. He was not alone as we soon met other couples who noted the same. BTW the homilies were not given by the now infamous Bishop Williamson, but by another SSPX priest.
I am not attempting to convince anyone of my point of view but am just relating why we have arrived where we are today in our own decision making concerning the Faith.
Thankyou Leon for being so gracious and patient to me on your blog.
I agree with you Mary. I also focus on the Scriptures and what has been believed “always, everywhere and by everyone” in the Church. Oh for the day when we will once again be simply Catholic.
Just to be clear, St. Thomas held that canonization is not infallible.
I rest my case, abuse begets abuse
http://news.yahoo.com/ap-exclusive-vatican-eyes-legion-priests-abuse-073340556.html
http://www.life-after-rc.com/2012/05/new-abuse-investigation-in-lc.html#comments